This interview was originally recorded on April 3, 2025.
The Oral History Project is supported by the Arthur F. and Alice E. Adams Charitable Foundation.

Ann Meier Baker, arts administrator

Ann Meier Baker served as the director of Music and Opera at the National Endowment for the Arts from January 2015 until May 2025. She oversaw the NEA’s grantmaking in music and opera, directed the NEA Jazz Masters Fellowships, and served on the senior leadership team for the NEA’s Sound Health Network. Previously, Baker spent 15 years as president and CEO of Chorus America, where she led the national membership association of more than 2,000 professional, volunteer, symphonic, and children/youth choruses. She was also the founding director of the National School Boards Association Foundation, an incubator for new ideas about the challenges facing urban school board leaders and other issues in public education. In addition, Baker held leadership roles at the League of American Orchestras and the National Association for Music Education, and she began her career as a professional singer with the United States Air Force Singing Sergeants.

Transcript

Marc A. Scorca: Ann Meier Baker, I am so honored and pleased that you are joining us to contribute to our Oral History collection. I'm just delighted to speak to you; thanks for taking the time today.

Ann Meier Baker:
I really appreciate the invitation.

Marc A. Scorca: You probably know by now that my first question always is, who brought you to your first opera?

Ann Meier Baker: It was my mother. My mom took me to see Così fan tutte at Cincinnati Opera, and the Despina was Kathleen Battle. And I remember that so clearly. I just was in awe of her in every way. My mom headed up a music department in a very large school district that was right outside Cincinnati, and she often found soloists for their big concerts in the Cincinnati Conservatory of Music, which is where Kathleen Battle got her start. And so, I had heard Kathleen Battle do Handel's Messiah (at) my mother's high school auditorium stage about a year before, but then I got to see her in an opera and was just charmed by her.

Marc A. Scorca: So the opera fan in me (wants to know), when you heard Kathleen Battle in a high school auditorium, even then, did you say, "Hmm, that's a pretty special voice?"

Ann Meier Baker: Oh, goodness yes. And just everything about her - the way she carried herself. She was the whole package in my mind.

Marc A. Scorca: Now, Così fan tutte is not an easy first opera, in terms of its length and a certain kind of plot confusion. Did you enjoy your first opera experience?

Ann Meier Baker: I did, I did. But a lot of my family's firsts have been odd things. We took my daughter when she was three years old to hear my husband sing in The Mother of Us All, not everybody's first opera! So, I suppose we can all start with Bohème, but Bohème is good whenever it comes up.

Marc A. Scorca: But for all of this talk about being completely smitten with a beautiful voice and operatic presence of Kathleen Battle, your first primary instrument was piano.

Ann Meier Baker: Right. I'm the youngest of five children, and there weren't a lot of options. We all got to take piano lessons, we had to take another instrument, we had to sing in the choir, we had to play in the band. We were expected to be part of the family business; that was the performing arts. And so, piano was always first. And I remember my mother also was a church musician, and she played the organ at church. And I said, "Oh, I wanna learn to play the organ". She said, "After you play the piano well". For her, the piano was the way you started, the way you made yourself a good musician. And that's where I got started. And we always sang as a family. Back in that day, cars didn't come with radios, you had to buy them extra. And so my father refused, because he said, "I've got all this music right here". So on car trips, we would just sing all the time. I remember when we finally did get a radio in the car, all we did was bicker about the station to listen to.

Marc A. Scorca: But singing became a very serious occupation for you, and you became a professional singer. What was the tipping point between singing in the family car, and deciding that actually using your voice as a professional was what you wanted to do?

Ann Meier Baker: You know, my undergraduate degree was in music education. I was a middle school choral music teacher, which was an adventure because the fellows would come in, and one day they had a range up there, and then the next day they would have a range down here. So, it was always an adventure to work with them. And I loved it. And I thought I was gonna be a music teacher. So, on a lark, a friend of mine dared me to audition for the Singing Sergeants. And I had no idea what that was, or why I would do such a thing. But it turned out that in Washington, all of the major branches of the military - each have a professional ensemble, string players and instrument players and singers and whatnot; great jazz bands in this city with those military bands. So, the Singing Sergeants were, I think at the time, 24 people, half men, half women. And you auditioned, and if you got in, then you joined the Air Force. So, it didn't matter if you had a master's degree or a doctorate degree, you were a Singing Sergeant, so you were enlisted. And that was just that. So, they promised us an escalated promotion system, which was an incentive. But at any rate, I auditioned for this and had no interest in pursuing it. And sure enough, like auditions go, when you do it on a lark, oftentimes things just land in your lap. And so I got a call. The conductor of the group at the time was Craig (D.) Jessop, who is a wonderful man, a wonderful musician. He went on to conduct The Mormon Tabernacle Choir, and is still a great friend today. So when he called and said, "We'd love for you to be one of 12 women in the United States Air Force Singing Sergeants. I thought, "Wow, I'm gonna get paid on the 15th and the 30th to sing, and that sounds pretty good to me". So my little ego ran away with me. And then I woke up in San Antonio, Texas, crawling under a barbed wire in July and August. So, I literally did go through battle in order to sing.

Marc A. Scorca: Wow. I didn't realize that it was, in a way, just on a dare that you auditioned. So that you were not thinking, "Oh, I really want to pursue a career as a singer", 'cause the army musical institutions are a stepping stone for a professional career for a lot of musicians. And I was just down at the New World Symphony, and a lot of those musicians are auditioning for the military ensembles, which are fine ensembles. And here you are getting into it on a dare.

Ann Meier Baker: Yeah. I was never ambitious in that way. Some people, I'm a mezzo-soprano, and some people say, "You're a soprano without any courage". And maybe that's true. I wasn't ambitious in that way. I didn't need to be downstage with the spotlight. I was happy to be in the ensemble.

Marc A. Scorca: And you saw the world as a Singing Sergeant.

Ann Meier Baker: In those days, I mean, I was only in for four years. Some people make a career out of it, but during my four years, we traveled literally the globe, and I went to places I never would've been, ever. So, it was just a once in a lifetime opportunity.

Marc A. Scorca: And you met your husband?

Ann Meier Baker: I did. I met my husband there. So it wasn't bad to court when we were in Athens, Greece on tour; there were wonderful opportunities.

Marc A. Scorca: Was he also a Singing Sergeant?

Ann Meier Baker: He was a Singing Sergeant. Now, he had a different path in mind. He always wanted to be a college professor. He wanted to be a teacher. And so the Air Force paid 90% of our tuition. So he got his master's degree, actually two master's degrees and a DMA during his time in the Air Force. He was in for two tours, eight years. And so that was always his goal. But he got a little sabbatical from the Air Force, and he went to Manhattan School of Music. And when he got there - he spent nine months there - people heard him sing, and they said, "What are you doing? You should use this gift you have". And so he was encouraged and started singing. And it worked out really well for him. He had a wonderful combination of singing a lot and teaching a lot. And because we live in Washington, DC, he could park halfway between his office at George Washington University's music department and halfway between the Kennedy Center, and he could just run back and forth.

Marc A. Scorca: Wow. I just love the fact that you were both sort of focusing on music education, so you had that in common. And then, singing became a pathway to greater things. You were allowed to date another Singing Sergeant?

Ann Meier Baker: Well, we were both sergeants. It wasn't like a rank thing.

Marc A. Scorca: Okay. So, there's no prohibition there. I wanna make sure we're on the up and up; that's okay. And of course, you know music so well from your education, from performing, and you had another glimpse into the opera world, because in fact, your husband sang dozens, if not hundreds of performances at the Washington National Opera. I know he also sang at The Met and you had to make space in your life for the performance anxiety or excitement of an opera singer in your house.

Ann Meier Baker: Yeah. You know, he was raised on a dairy farm, and a lot of singers of note were raised on farms and ranches and that sort of thing. And the way he goes about his life and his work, is just hard work. So he was never the diva who had to be adored; he just got up and milked the cows, or whatever the equivalent of that was. So as a performer, he was the same kind of thing. He put the work in, he showed up, he tried to be a good colleague and deliver all the things that he was asked to deliver. And then he just kept at it. And I was happy being the wife of the tenor. I got to go a lot of places that I wouldn't have gotten to go before. I met a lot of fantastic people I wouldn't have had the opportunity to meet. I learned a lot from him. I think he would say he learned a lot from me too. We don't have the kind of relationship (more than 40 years now, goodness) that you park your day at the door and leave that there. We're both in this same world, and our friends are our colleagues, and it's all one thing. We don't live in the work; we live and work all at the same time.

Marc A. Scorca: And isn't that a great benefit of a life in the arts, in that you don't have the separation? Some days maybe you wish for the separation, but you don't have that. It all sort of blends into a wonderful life. You believe in singing as kind of an ultimate democratic art form. I found an interview that you did some years ago when you were at Chorus America, and you said, "I think singing is like the secret sauce because everybody can do it, and everybody does do it in their car, and in the shower. So to sing with people and for people, it's just an amazing opportunity". Do you still believe in singing that way?

Ann Meier Baker: I do. I believe in participation in the arts. We do a lot of studies about the number of people who attend this or that, about the number of people who read a book every year, or whatever the metric is. And I really think participating, not just attending, not just reading a poem, but trying to write a poem... You know, I can see all the Nutcrackers in the world, but there's nothing like getting up off my chair and dancing. I think participation is the secret sauce. And because singing is singing, we all carry these things around in our throat. We don't have to purchase them. And some of us can do it at a higher level than others, but I think the act of making the process of art is as important as the product, as art, in our world. So yeah, I think singing is kind of the secret sauce to doing a whole host of other things.

Marc A. Scorca: In some wonderful research that you did while you were at Chorus America, you documented that people who sing in choruses (and it focused on choral singing) also were just more active as citizens in the places they lived. And it was a really positive, I don't know that it talked about a causal relationship, but there was clearly a link between getting out and singing with people and making your city a better place. It was great research. Do you have lingering memories of that?

Ann Meier Baker: Oh, I do. I remember I just started at Chorus America and there wasn't much data about who does it, or why they do it, or how many people do that. And like any good fundraiser, I was writing proposals and trying to work out our pitch. And one day our development director and I sat down with the back of an envelope, and we started to estimate, "Well, there are this many people who sing in those kinds of choruses, and there are this many choruses"... Anyway, we came up with a number - a hundred thousand people - we decided sang in choruses. And so in our proposals, we would write "Experts agree that there are a hundred thousand people who sing in choruses". Well, we were off. At one point, we said, "We just have to stop making this stuff up, and we have to see". So, we commissioned this research, and boy, were we wrong. I think the number back then was 21% of people, in this country, sang in some kind of ensemble. And a lot of them have degrees in music, but they went on to be in other professions. And so they're talented. They can read music. They know what they're up to. Of course, many of them are non-music readers and that sort of thing too. But just when it comes to participation in the arts, showing up at rehearsal once or twice a week, shelling out the parking fee if you live in a big city like I do, really, it's a commitment to your community, and that community becomes really important in your life. So, we ask these other questions. You know, I was reading the book, Bowling Alone on the beach that summer, and one of the things that Robert (D.) Putnam says is, "You know, people are bowling frequently now, but they're bowling alone. They're not bowling in leagues". And this is 25-year-old research now. And he was saying, "There are ways to build community, and one is to start a choir". And I was reading that on the beach, and I thought, "Start a choir. We got plenty of choirs, just go sing in one". And it got me thinking. So, we used a lot of the same data that he used to talk about social connectedness in our Chorus America research. And that's how we stumbled upon the idea that more people who sing in choruses, run for office. They are more likely to contribute their time and their resources to charity. That kids who sing in choirs have more social skills, and they're more apt to be able to ameliorate their feelings. You know, like sometimes tenors take the lead here, and sometimes it's sopranos back off, and that you learn how to moderate your behavior for the good of the whole.

Marc A. Scorca: And I think that research showed that people who sing in choirs or choruses are more likely to vote.

Ann Meier Baker: That's true too. Now, we couldn't show causation, but the correlation there was pretty interesting. I think these are the people you wanna live next door to.

Marc A. Scorca: Yep, and leave the windows open so you can hear them practicing. Now you have worked at the League of American Orchestras, which is where I first met you and you led Chorus America. You have been the Head of the Music and Opera program at the National Endowment for the Arts, which includes chamber music and jazz. So, you more than almost anyone I've spoken to, have deep experience with various art forms and the institutions that promote the art. And I'm wondering, given this scope of experience you have, whether you find more similarity among all of these art forms, or more differences. What are you struck by?

Ann Meier Baker: What a great question. I think the answer is 'all of the above'. At the end of the day, folks are about the same thing, that we really want to share our art forms. We really want to involve people. We want you to understand why this is so special. But they're also so different. And you and I learned this when we ran the National Performing Arts Convention, which was quite the adventure. You know, I rode on your coattails in that process for sure. But it's really hard to collaborate. And I see this in NEA applications all the time because we ask who are your partners? How are you gonna work with them, et cetera. And these are typically not the strongest aspect of people's proposals, because collaboration can make things stronger. It can also make you crazy. And it's an art form in itself, is collaborating well with other people. So that whole actual Performing Arts Convention was quite an adventure, and I learned a lot about our similarities. But just like in my work today, there are a lot of differences too, and those differences are important also. When I think about orchestras as institutions, we think about them as these, well, institutions. And then when I look in the field of jazz, there are a bunch of individual people going from gig to gig, hoping that they'll get some healthcare at the end of the day. Look at some of those chamber music ensembles that are light on their feet and small and doing all kinds of things. Whereas with a flagship opera company, sometimes it can be like turning the Queen Mary, right? So there are pros and cons to all of these things, to being a legacy arts organization, to being a new adventuresome arts organization, to having a big infrastructure, to not being encumbered by all of that. So it's both the same and different. Both are important.

Marc A. Scorca: That certainly has been my experience too. And when you hear people in a kind of shorthand way say, "Oh, you know, they should all work together; let's bring every one of these arts organizations together under one roof". They all have such different operating dynamics. And it's subtle, but profound. Again, the similarities and the differences.

Ann Meier Baker: Yeah. I noticed during the Performing Arts Conventions experience, it was all these service organizations. And so there were a whole bunch of Marcs and Anns around the table who were trying to make this work. And of course, we all brought our own expectations. You know, "My conference, we charged this much, and we earned this much. And your conference, you charge that much, and you don't earn anything", or whatever it might be. So just trying to work out the revenue models and all of these shared services was a challenge. But what I noticed was, and this is not scientific, the people who run those organizations very much had the personality of their art forms.

Marc A. Scorca: So true.

Ann Meier Baker: And it was just fascinating to see almost stereotypically how that worked out. I'm sure that me at Chorus America, I'm sure I embodied that volunteer spirit too.

Marc A. Scorca: No, it was so true; such a phenomenal learning experience. We'll come back to that in a second. You also founded the National School Board Association Foundation, and I know that you are really insightful into good governance practices and what makes a strong board, given the work that you've done. What is your sense of the importance of good governance to the success of our nonprofit arts organizations?

Ann Meier Baker: It is so important. You know, I'm aging myself, but back in the day, one thing that executive directors of arts organizations could all agree on, was that their boards were no good. Everyone loved to complain. And the refrain was often, "Well, my board made me do that". And my sense from working at these service organizations and watching administrators of organizations talk about this, is that they really resented the time that they invested in their board. They thought that that was just wasted time, and the time that they should be investing in were all the other things on their list. And it just occurred to me that actually it is a huge part of the job. And that you have to invest a huge part of your sweat equity in developing that board, in learning from them. They're all smart in different ways. Maybe they're not rowing in the same direction that you wish they were, but there's stuff to learn there. And I just think 'The board ought to raise more money', or 'My board made me do that' is an easy out. I don't subscribe to that. One of the things I miss most about Chorus America was the board. When I got there, it was a board all full of conductors of choruses. Now, this would've been very useful if we wanted to sing at our board meetings, but that was not our purpose. So I went about trying to change the composition of that board, and it took years, because of the arc of board leadership and how long people were serving their terms and whatnot. It took a long time. But when I left there, it was the most wonderful group of people who had really different perspectives. And they were delightful.

Marc A. Scorca: And of course, in your position at the NEA, you're not shaping a board and working with a board and engaging them. So, yeah. In fact, that is an element I think I too would miss. You mentioned already our adventure of the Performing Arts Conventions, both in 2004 in Pittsburgh, and then 2008, bigger and better in Denver. And really our good friendship was forged 21, 22 years ago as we would drive together from Washington, DC to Pittsburgh. And as one does in a car where you just share all of your secrets, as you're driving along the highway. I remember it so well, and we managed to pull together a collaborative effort among the disciplines, and did it again in 2008, in an even more integrated fashion. And then I also know of your work in the education sector. Do you see more opportunity for collaboration that we are missing out on, or in these times of stress and tight budgets, do you think it should be every art form, and every institution, for itself?

Ann Meier Baker: We've already talked about how hard collaboration can be, but I think it's the only way that we succeed is by working together and being collegial and looking out for one another, because our slice of the pie is like this, (makes very narrow gesture) you know? And if we can't share that and work together to maybe elbow a little bigger slice of the pie, I think every art form for itself is a failing model. So we have to respect the differences between all of these different genres, but also be good to one another, be good citizens. And look out for the common good. That is part of democracy and part of what we're struggling to do well these days in our country.

Marc A. Scorca: You, and this may be your choral background, where achieving balance among the voice parts is really important, but I read in another interview that you did, where you said about yourself, that "The interviewer is talking to a person who is an expert in getting advice. I consider myself one of the most consultative people on the planet". What's the value of that approach?

Ann Meier Baker: I aim to be. People are smart. There are a lot of folks who know things I will never know. And I taught my daughter this when she was a little girl. I said, "Here's your secret way of going about life. When in doubt, ask, 'what would you do if you were me?'" And it's like a key that opens a lock. And people say, "Well, here's what I'd do. If I was fundraising, I would say, 'You know, we have this gap we're trying to fill. What would you do if you were me?" When I was trying to advocate for something that I cared about with some decision maker, I'd say, "This is why this is important. What do you recommend we do about this?" It's magic. People love to share their advice. And by the way, you get pretty smart, pretty fast. I remember one time...my mother passed away many years ago, and she was a school teacher. My dad was an elementary school principal. They had five kids, there was no money. But she retired in June from teaching, and she died in a car accident in August. So there was this little window where she was at her highest net worth, and she was planning to live for the next 30 years on this little nest egg. So it turned out that there was a little bit of money and it wasn't much, but I never assumed I would inherit a penny. And so we got this little bit of money, and my husband and I never had a little chunk of money, and so we're like, "What should we do?" We wanna save part of this, but we wanna do this. And so we chatted about it, and then he went to the library and he read every book there is on investing. And I got on the phone and started talking to people and saying, "I know you do a little bit of this. What are you learning?" And I remember we went about it so differently, and he was like, "What are you doing?" But it is the way that I have researched a lot of my life. It has worked well for me. And I think it also flatters people to be asked what you think.

Marc A. Scorca: Sure. And it is, I find, so much more rewarding in life to live with inquiry as opposed to living with certainty. Life's an adventure, if you're always asking questions.

Ann Meier Baker: Amen to that.

Marc A. Scorca: So, years now at a federal arts agency in a country that has hundreds of art forms. I don't wanna limit it to dozens. From native art forms to imported art forms, to new art forms that are still being formed today, like new stars out in the galaxy. What is the role of a federal arts agency in a society that is so pluralistic and has so many different traditions?

Ann Meier Baker: I think it's aspirational, isn't it? We're always aspiring to make this crazy arts world in this country work. As I look at my own portfolio at the NEA, and those of my other colleagues in different disciplines, my goodness, the array of art-making is amazing. And as I said earlier, smaller budget organizations are doing great things and big budget organizations are doing great things. And everything in between, there are these little sparks of brilliance and of meaning and of connection to communities in little rural spaces where they don't have much to choose from, and in thriving metropolis, where there's an unbelievable number of things to choose from. So, I think that that's where the NEA and federal funding comes in, because we really do fund in every nook and cranny in this country. And when you look at private philanthropy and other kinds of things, not so much. So I think that at the end of the day, if we really want everybody to have access, everybody to have a chance to have a good music teacher, to have a theater opportunity where you stand up on a stage and wear a goofy outfit and pretend to be 30 years older than you are...if we want people to have a chance, everybody should have a chance. And I think that's what federal funding for the arts can do, is give everybody a shot.

Marc A. Scorca: And of course, you say everybody, and yet limited funding means you can only support some things. And I think those of us who are on this side of the divide think, "It must be great to be giving out money as opposed to raising money all the time". But it must be hugely frustrating to you as a funder to see great work, and there just isn't enough money to support it all.

Ann Meier Baker: There certainly isn't. And in the last couple years, the number of applications to the NEA has grown exponentially. So we have no more money and no more staff, and many more wonderful projects coming our way. So it's very hard. And you know, I run the NEA Jazz Master's program, and we choose just a handful of people each year to honor. I get hate mail from people who say, "Why didn't you choose so and so?" And, "What are you thinking?' And you always think, as somebody who used to complete NEA applications and who would consume vast amounts of chocolate in order to make that happen, you always think, "Oh, it must be sweet on the other side". It's hard there too. I'm not complaining. I have a wonderful opportunity to serve. There aren't very many directors of music and opera in this country at the National Endowment for the Arts. And so I know how lucky I am and how honored I am to serve, but it's still difficult.

Marc A. Scorca: And you've worked at a Federal Arts Agency and at service organizations like the League (of American Orchestras), like Chorus America. You haven't worked in the trenches of a frontline arts producing organization, where curtain goes up and audiences are in the seats, or not in the seats, whichever it is. You've had a real career in that second row of arts production, which is helping enable it, helping making it possible, collecting best practices, sharing those, supporting those who are doing. Have you found that a rewarding position to have for your career?

Ann Meier Baker: I do. I really do. I'm not ambitious in the way that maybe some performing artists are, or other leaders are. But I have a deep respect for screwing up, so I don't wanna screw up. You know, sort of first do no harm, right? And somehow, as you say, being in the second row, I can help folks move along in that way, and be sure that they don't screw it up, or that I don't screw it up. So yeah, I'm very, very comfortable in that place. And also, what a benefit, because in national service organizations and now at the NEA, I really get to see a wide range of what's going on, and I learn something every day that I didn't know. And what else do you ask for? It's remarkable.

Marc A. Scorca: My last area of questioning comes from another interview where you were out in Utah and you were speaking to some students, and you said "why your studies and the connections you make between art ideas and people are really important, how ultimately it can lead you to live an artful life". And I love that phrase, and I wanted to ask you what you mean by 'living an artful life?'

Ann Meier Baker: You know, it's interesting 'cause I made this convocation speech in a liberal arts university where there were lots and lots of music majors, but they wouldn't necessarily be professional musicians. And for example, your love of governance and mine, we know that having people who serve on boards, who know about the arts, who are knowledgeable, but who might make their living doing something else can be a great arrow in your quiver. And there were so many other roles: music therapists or music administrators. There are so many roles that we need in this field. So whether or not there are volunteers, or these music students turn out to be the next answer to opera - the artful life - there are skills that you can use and that you can take into whatever role you play. You know, when Maria Rosario Jackson came to the National Endowment for the Arts, she started talking about artful lives. And I looked back and I said, "Oh, yeah, I said that in that speech". So I told her and we laughed about it, but she really believed (and I concur) that it's a way of being; it's not a way of doing. It's not what you do, you're an artist or you're not. It's a way of being, of being open and curious, being empathetic, trying to appreciate one another's skills and finding common ground rather than divisiveness. Artful lives is a way of behaving, I think

Marc A. Scorca: I gave a convention speech some years ago, and I said that if you try to do tomorrow better than you did yesterday, you're an artist at whatever you do - just trying to make it better makes you an artist.

Ann Meier Baker: Well said.

Marc A. Scorca: So Ann, advice. I always ask people, for those who may say, "I would like a life in arts leadership, arts policy, arts service organizations", or "I'd like to lead an artful life", what advice do you have for young people today?

Ann Meier Baker: You know, I asked this question of Renée Fleming once. Renée has been very involved in the intersection between music and the brain. And I've had the opportunity to work with her on that a little bit. And I asked her once, "Looking back, what do you wish you'd done differently?" or "What's your advice to a young Renée Fleming today?" And she said, "Oh, Ann, I don't have any, the world is so different now". You know, when she started out, you auditioned, you got an agent, they told you where to go and what to do. The world of a singer today isn't that, it's different. And so I always remember that. For Renée, with all of her amazing skills and talents and the things that she's accomplished to say, "Beats me". You know, I don't have advice for folks. You have to want it, and you have to wanna work really hard. And the generation today, I have a lot of respect for the people who talk about work/life balance. And I think that makes a lot of good sense. But that never crossed my mind, and I didn't have that expectation. It was just all one thing. And I don't know that that's in vogue now. I don't know how many people have an appetite for that, but in my experience, you have to be able to just roll up your sleeves and hustle.

Marc A. Scorca: I agree. And I so appreciate hearing those words from you. I so appreciate hearing all of these stories that let us know how lucky we have been to work with you as a colleague and to have your leadership of the Music and Opera Program at the NEA. Ann Meier Baker, thank you for taking this time. Thanks for speaking with me. And all I can say is I look forward to seeing you soon and catching up some more.

Ann Meier Baker: Sounds great. Thanks so much for inviting me. I really appreciate it, Marc.